Route Marking Thoughts

[Art Waugh]

I had a request from one of the National Forests to see if the OHV community could come up with some kind of easy marker for open routes that could be applied nationwide across all Federal agencies. I see no reason it could not be used sate and locally as well. Should be like the "green dot" system in use for hunting season.

With the agencies going to designated routes this would end a lot of confusion for the users as there is no mandate to sign either open or closed, nor to put up road/trail numbers.

First thought is a bright yellow reflector in either round or square shape.

I have started the ball rolling by contacting Oregon's ATV program, and our IAD's

Feel free to toss out your thoughts or comments here and let me know what you think.

[Jon_in_da_couve]

Interesting Art, I had a similar conversation with the MT hood folks this weekend. The request for signage actually came from one of the LEO's as he was unsure how to correlate if a road was open or closed based just off the map.

I'll be watching this to see what you come up with, if it can just be an addition toi the standard carsonite (IE a sticker) that would work best for us in the MT Hood NF.

[Merrick Graves]

In the FS district I work for and in the other districts in the Wenatchee/Okanogan National Forest we use what I thought was a standardized method.

We have plastic diamonds. They are nailed to trees with 16 penny galvy nails in such a manner that as the tree grows the diamond is pushed along the nails. In other words the nails are not driven home. 4X and Moto trails share the same color, grey, Cross country ski/snowshoe trails are blue and snowmobile trails are marked orange. The idea is to mount the diamonds so that you can start to see the next one as you go past one. They are sized at about 4" per side which makes about a 6" diamond. They are avaiable commercially. Also can be gotten with a reflective surface. And there is a larger size which can also have an arrow, left, right of straight.

Tomorrow I will get the order info. I think off the top of my head they came from "Rockart" http://www.rockartsigns.com/ I'll also get a couple pic's. We also have a trail designation explantation at numerous Kiosk and trailheads thoughout the forest. If the FS is asking have them contact me I'm with the Naches Ranger District.

Hope this helps

[Merrick Graves]

Originally Posted by Jon_in_da_couve

Interesting Art, I had a similar conversation with the MT hood folks this weekend. The request for signage actually came from one of the LEO's as he was unsure how to correlate if a road was open or closed based just off the map.

I'll be watching this to see what you come up with, if it can just be an addition toi the standard carsonite (IE a sticker) that would work best for us in the MT Hood NF.

In a USFS area that has a Travel Management Plan (TMP). There is a Motor Vehicle Use Map (MVUM). Everyone who operates a motor vehicle must carry the map (you can be ticketed for not having a MVUM). The map shows only the roads that are open. EVERYTHING ELSE IS CLOSED. The MVUM is meant to do away with signs other than road number signs.

Takes only general map reading skills to know what and where you are with this map. Notice: do not confuse thie MVUM with a District Map ( firemans map). If a TMP is in force the MVUM is free for the asking at any District Office in the forest you are recreating in.

[Merrick Graves]

Art, Look here http://www.rockartsigns.com/rockarts...&product=Signs

[Art Waugh]

Nice site, thanks.

Jon had a point, that when a LEO who is out and about on a daily basis, and can't figure out what is open and closed or where he is, something is wrong with the system. There was no mandate to post open or closed, and not even one to put up route numbers when direction was sent down to do the TMP's. (in what 2005?) With funding the way it is, I don't see a lot of hope to even get route numbers up on what is still open anywhere in the near future.

I did drop an email to the Deputy Forest Supervisor on W-W with your contact info.

[Jon_in_da_couve]

Originally Posted by Merrick Graves

In a USFS area that has a Travel Management Plan (TMP). There is a Motor Vehicle Use Map (MVUM). Everyone who operates a motor vehicle must carry the map (you can be ticketed for not having a MVUM). The map shows only the roads that are open. EVERYTHING ELSE IS CLOSED. The MVUM is meant to do away with signs other than road number signs.

Takes only general map reading skills to know what and where you are with this map. Notice: do not confuse thie MVUM with a District Map ( firemans map). If a TMP is in force the MVUM is free for the asking at any District Office in the forest you are recreating in.

Hi Merrick, Thanks for your reply. I am actually quite familiar with the MVUM. Not to nit pick on the importance of having an MVUM and knowing if the trail you are on is open or closed, but I do not agree on the comment that "You can be ticketed for not having an MVUM". Perhaps that is the case in your local forest, but it is not the case in the MT Hood National Forest. If this is the case in your local forest I would appreciate any links you can provide stating this. The lack of consistency in signage (or lack of), MVUM's, and how the TMP is implemented is something I have been trying to keep track of.

You can and likely will be ticketed for being on a road that is designated as closed in the MVUM, but the lack of having one in your vehicle will not get you ticketed. There is no requirement that you must have a MVUM. It's a good idea to have one, I suggest you have one, but it is not required, and lack of having one is not a ticketable offense.

The point that I had mentioned was one that was actually raised by an USFS LEO. I have also heard the same concern from county deputies as well as from OSP fish and game. I've also had discussions with USFS personnel, where they have raised the issue of the need for signage. They have mentioned they need signage to show that an area is open to OHV use, and this last weekend heard them state they needed signage to show where an area was closed to vehicular use, or where the OHV boundary ended.

In both instances I explained to them irony that they wanted signs as the MVUM and the implementation of the TMP was suppose to no longer require signs, but in both instances I also agreed that signs would probably be a good thing. In both instances they seemed to agree that the concept of not having signs wasn't working very well. Granted these are local, mid level personnel, but if other USFS employee's in other forests are also feeling the same way and struggling with how to make the TMP and associated MVUM work... well then maybe that can be a catalyst for change.

[Merrick Graves]

I do not work in a Forest with a TMP. 6 propasals are due to come out Fall of 2012. Public comment will narrow down the choices to a final draft. Final comment and then implementation I guess would be about maybe Fall 2014 (?). No one seems to able to give a definative answer.

I have worked with both a LEO and FPO's that stated there is a requirement in their forest (MBSNF) that requires users to carry the MVUM.

I have not found a CFR that directly relates to having a MVUM. However I found in the Mt Baker/Snoqualmie National Forest a statement on their webpage that requires a MVUM. Not finding a CFR attached with the statement requiring a MVUM I could surmise that they have a Forest Order requiring a MVUM. Come Monday I will inquire to the Ranger I have spoken to in the past about this matter if such an order exist.

I also have another publication to check. I'll look at that over this weekend.

[jim putman]

Originally Posted by Merrick Graves

I do not work in a Forest with a TMP. 6 propasals are due to come out Fall of 2012. Public comment will narrow down the choices to a final draft. Final comment and then implementation I guess would be about maybe Fall 2014 (?). No one seems to able to give a definative answer.

I have worked with both a LEO and FPO's that stated there is a requirement in their forest (MBSNF) that requires users to carry the MVUM.

I have not found a CFR that directly relates to having a MVUM. However I found in the Mt Baker/Snoqualmie National Forest a statement on their webpage that requires a MVUM. Not finding a CFR attached with the statement requiring a MVUM I could surmise that they have a Forest Order requiring a MVUM. Come Monday I will inquire to the Ranger I have spoken to in the past about this matter if such an order exist.

I also have another publication to check. I'll look at that over this weekend.

Yep thats been a muddled up mess of grey water since they implemented the MUVM that and the errors that are all over the map. Then theres the fact that they didnt print anything close to the amount of maps that were needed or have them available so people could get them easily. (like when buying a NW forest pass at the Burnett store).