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  #11  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:21 PM
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Merrick Graves Merrick Graves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
Some day I may have a truck small enough to go to Trail Jam. Until then I will go with others who have made the trails with trucks my size. Hope to see it this summer and maybe I'll understand more.

Or was that a (full size) fat joke?
Still there are three trails open to your fullsize. Seven that are not open to the fullsize (75" width restrictions).

The width restrictions were lifted from FS Trail Building and Maint. Guide. Will provide link Sunday nite. Not able to access that computor right now. On my way out the door right now.
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  #12  
Old 01-23-2009, 09:19 PM
EagleMark EagleMark is offline
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That's very confusing!
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  #13  
Old 01-24-2009, 03:17 PM
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Dave McMains Dave McMains is offline
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Merrick was not at his regular computer where he has the FS regs saved, he will be home on Sunday and will down load them then. Is that better?
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  #14  
Old 01-24-2009, 03:35 PM
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As far as I know, the width limit has always been set by the Forest Service. It's their prerogative to control large groups. The PNW must obey those rules. The FS is concerned with 20 rigs in row on the trail causing considerable damage. Small unorganized groups with fullsize rigs are able fly under the FS radar. Show up with a large group of oversize rigs and your subject to FS rules, regulations, insurance and permits. While I've never heard of this happening it's possible.

I've been on the trail with a fullsize rig hybrid. It wasn't pretty. Keep the fullsize rigs to their own trails. Once a trail is fullsize rig compliant it's suddenly no challenge for my rig.
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  #15  
Old 01-24-2009, 04:30 PM
EagleMark EagleMark is offline
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So if it's 20 rigs to a trail then you could accept the first 60 full size rigs at registration. Not turn them away. We need all new members not just the old small ones. That's fair isn't it? I doubt you'd ever get that many but I hate what I heard about talking full size trucks out of coming and sending their money back. That's not fair.
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  #16  
Old 01-24-2009, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merrick Graves View Post
The width restrictions were lifted from FS Trail Building and Maint. Guide.
I pulled this quote from a thread in the old forum...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merrick Graves View Post
Don't bother asking the FS. They can't answer you. However the answer is found in FSH 2309.18. That is the manual that establish's trail standards. In the hardest trail level is a standard stating widest rigs allowed. We have adopted that standard for the hardest trails that the T/J runs. We wrote our travel plan according to the standard we accepted. The FS reviews our plans and approves them thereby making that the rule.

We decided on that width (74")after I measured a number of built rigs. These rigs came from the event and when the TJ came out I traveled to a local dealer and measured every large tire dealer preped TJ on his lot. We measure bulge to bulge. Well prepared rigs may get by with tread block to tread block. Those measuring have been instructed to be very liberal in their acessment. They refer all judgement calls to me. I screen all registrations prior to a confirmation of the registration. We have never turned someone away after they arrive for width. They may be restricted to lesser rated trails. We have sent people away for lack of proof of insurance.

Since we adopted our own rule tire size has grown. Some run ridiculous size tires. Some run wider than stock axles to accomadate these tires. The decision for the rule came about when we were getting backyard/shadetree fabbed rigs ( aproblem that has tended to go away with the advent of the TJ). Those rigs generaly caused a problem. Many of these rigs proved unrelieable and in some cases not/trail worthly, not to mention of questionable legality. We were met with arguements that the operators of those rigs could run what they brought and they could negoiate any trail we ran. Our host were fed up with the additude and the fact that those rigs held up the groups and often came back on a strap. We gave the width rule much thought. Our permit renews after the 2009 event (I think). I plan to rewrite the rule to accomadate rigs running stock width axles.

I know the arguements. I know how this event works. I have seen the best of drivers in rigs that did not fit our standards. Those drivers made it thru every trail. On a couple of particular runs that we closely watched those runs ran 2 hours or more longer. When the group as a whole was asked what's up it came out that the larger rigs had no place with the smaller ones. We made the changes we saw needed to be made to keep the the runs on schedule. It has made for a better event.
Here is the width restriction Merrick is referring to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merrick Graves View Post
CORRECTION The Forest Service Handbook reads 70" hub to hub. Hub to hub is the same as WMS to WMS. The TRAIL JAMBOREE measures outside of tire to outside of tire. Much different than WMS to WMS.
If I understand this correctly 70" hub-to-hub or WMS-to-WMS would include a full width dana 60 axle?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merrick Graves View Post
The width requirement will be changed in the next permiting process. It will be carefully worded speaking to stock axle width and probably give width ranges for certain class's of vehicles. It may even list max width for makes and year of vehicle. Don't know yet. Haven't given it much thought. We are planning the 20th TJ and trying to put something special in it.
So what did you decide on this one? I am interested to see how the permit was worded.

I love all the discussion...nice to see everyone so passionate. Hope to share a beer with ya sometime



To view the entire old thread...follow the link:
http://www.pnw4wda.org/forum/viewtop...er=asc&start=0
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  #17  
Old 01-24-2009, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
So if it's 20 rigs to a trail then you could accept the first 60 full size rigs at registration. Not turn them away. We need all new members not just the old small ones. That's fair isn't it? I doubt you'd ever get that many but I hate what I heard about talking full size trucks out of coming and sending their money back. That's not fair.
Are you engaging in honest discussion? Lets say 60 rigs are admitted. The complaint would be immediate that some of them are not allowed on the narrow trails. Registration at the TrailJam would be a nightmare. Changing the number admitted to 40, 20 or 1 would still become a logistical nightmare. Above all else the PNW must comply with Forest Service rules. Your fighting the wrong people here. The Forest Service could shut down the TrailJam if the PNW is out of compliance. As far as I know the PNW has a great working relationship with the FS. Lets keep it that way.
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  #18  
Old 01-29-2009, 08:27 PM
EagleMark EagleMark is offline
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This entire ordeal has been a genuine honest discussion! Now that I have heard so much more I would have to agree with you. I still don't like people being turned away because their 4x4 is to big. But if Merrick does talk someone out of coming in their stock 2008 4x4 pickup I could understand more than say a stock 1985 Blazer that a new off roading type guy while he's doing a buildup.

End of discussion and opposition from me. I never questioned the Trail Jam and how it was run because everyone has said how well it was done and how much fun it was..
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  #19  
Old 01-29-2009, 09:30 PM
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As a trail leader for our jamboree one of the most important jobs we have is in the time management aspect of the trail runs. It is the trail leaders job to get the group safely through the trails and back to camp by dinner time. Many of these trails are narrow or have narrow areas that while with a lot of effort are passable in a bigger rig we simply do not have the time on these runs to deal with the work involved in getting the larger rigs through some of the trails. While out on a club type trail run nobody really cares if it takes some extra time and effort to squeeze a big rig through but if we had the bigger rigs on some of the tight trails it could easily add several hours to a day that is already long. Its enough stress having to deal with the preasure of getting everyone back with changing trail conditions, breakdowns, accidents() and such adding full size and bigger type rigs is a stress as a trail leader I really wouldnt want to have. Just my 2 cents
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