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  #11  
Old 05-13-2009, 06:04 PM
jim putman's Avatar
jim putman jim putman is offline
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Originally Posted by dirk View Post
Why do you think that limiting tire size is the answer to all our problems? I think our time would be better spent on educating wheelers.



The driver behind the wheel is what causes resource damage...we should be educating these folks...not trying to limit the tires they run.

I would rather see the FS get aggressive with education & enforcement on the trail...I would welcome some ranger presence out on the trails. I only see them in camp once in a while. A busy weekend is an excellent opportunity to spread the word. The same goes for us...we should also be aggressive with policing our own.
We all know tire size is not the problem its the idiot with the big tires that makes places impassable that is the problem. We never had issues like the ones we do now when big meant 33". Unfortunatly stupid cant be enforced or legeslated so we may see tire size limits in the near future. One thing is for sure. We cant continue on the same path were on. I for one am getting real tired of spending my free weekends on workpartys instead of actualy going wheeling. I know there are many others with the same attitude.
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  #12  
Old 05-13-2009, 06:25 PM
Merrick Graves Merrick Graves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk View Post
Why do you think that limiting tire size is the answer to all our problems? I think our time would be better spent on educating wheelers.




The driver behind the wheel is what causes resource damage...we should be educating these folks...not trying to limit the tires they run.

I would rather see the FS get aggressive with education & enforcement on the trail...I would welcome some ranger presence out on the trails. I only see them in camp once in a while. A busy weekend is an excellent opportunity to spread the word. The same goes for us...we should also be aggressive with policing our own.
I will never be able to hold an elected office in this org. You see it's because I believe that tire and vehicle sizes should be limited on trails. And was involved in discussion about such with the authourity's having jurisdiction. The concenseous was that restrictions are discriminating against users and are not workable. They may change that attitude. With that being said you can now work to educate me that the destruction I have seen is not the result of tire size, vehicle size and irresponsable drivers. If you really think education will solve this problem. You should be able find the time to either hold or attend class's now that the area is closed. Maybe some form of licensing to run trails is in order.

The FS and Yakima county Sheriff has worked hard to educate the user. Their message has been well recieved by the responsable user but not by the irresponsable user. Their presence was and has been noticed. I know they are out there. I talk to then often on the trail. I also run with them on emphasis patrols. Self policing does work. I have seen tickets written for resource damage based on photos turned into the authoritys.

Funding of education/enforcement has always been hard to secure. Seems our lawmakers want to see positive results and the most bang for the buck. That was the past. Now the lawmakers have shifted funding and the Rangers are doing what they can to protect the lands they are charged with protecting. That is their #1 priorty. The motorized user comes further down the list.

Still comes down to resource damage. Wet soils are easily disturbed. Windfall trees cause bypass's. Snow on the ground causes bypass's.

Pay close attention next time you are on the trail. Notice the Shoestring if you look carefully you can see where the trail was in the past. I counted 5 many year old bypass's last time I was on the Quartz Mountain trail. We closed 3 or 4 bypass's on the Woodpecker last year before the Jamboree. The Naches Trail moves back and forth due to bypass's each year. Same problem on the Kaner. Same problem on all trails. The trails used to be tighter and more technical. With the straight line bypass' the trails are shorter. I fight for more trail by removing bypass's. I've been told that the jamboree permit authorizes us to use the trails. Bypass's are not part of the trail. Many of these bypass's are caused by what. The answer is..........








Large vehicles on big tires driven by irresponsable users!!!
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  #13  
Old 05-13-2009, 07:25 PM
EagleMark EagleMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Merrick Graves View Post
Sure you want to stand behind that statement? Seems rather ignorant to me. Ever been to that area Memorial weekend? Ever attended a work party there to help restore resource damage caused that weekend?
I will stand behind the statement below. That is why there are so many organizations fighting to keep things open.. I have never been to a work party there but I have helped clean up many an area after irresponsible off roaders on holiday weekends. Alcohol is usually the cause of the irresponsible drivers, user created trails and resource damage.
Quote:
What the **** does that mean?

I think it's just BS. USFS has a long time history of finding where people go to enjoy themselves and close it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merrick Graves View Post
I will never be able to hold an elected office in this org. You see it's because I believe that tire and vehicle sizes should be limited on trails. And was involved in discussion about such with the authourity's having jurisdiction. The concenseous was that restrictions are discriminating against users and are not workable. They may change that attitude. With that being said you can now work to educate me that the destruction I have seen is not the result of tire size, vehicle size and irresponsable drivers. If you really think education will solve this problem. You should be able find the time to either hold or attend class's now that the area is closed. Maybe some form of licensing to run trails is in order.

The FS and Yakima county Sheriff has worked hard to educate the user. Their message has been well recieved by the responsable user but not by the irresponsable user. Their presence was and has been noticed. I know they are out there. I talk to then often on the trail. I also run with them on emphasis patrols. Self policing does work. I have seen tickets written for resource damage based on photos turned into the authoritys.

Funding of education/enforcement has always been hard to secure. Seems our lawmakers want to see positive results and the most bang for the buck. That was the past. Now the lawmakers have shifted funding and the Rangers are doing what they can to protect the lands they are charged with protecting. That is their #1 priorty. The motorized user comes further down the list.

Still comes down to resource damage. Wet soils are easily disturbed. Windfall trees cause bypass's. Snow on the ground causes bypass's.

Pay close attention next time you are on the trail. Notice the Shoestring if you look carefully you can see where the trail was in the past. I counted 5 many year old bypass's last time I was on the Quartz Mountain trail. We closed 3 or 4 bypass's on the Woodpecker last year before the Jamboree. The Naches Trail moves back and forth due to bypass's each year. Same problem on the Kaner. Same problem on all trails. The trails used to be tighter and more technical. With the straight line bypass' the trails are shorter. I fight for more trail by removing bypass's. I've been told that the jamboree permit authorizes us to use the trails. Bypass's are not part of the trail. Many of these bypass's are caused by what. The answer is..........








Large vehicles on big tires driven by irresponsable users!!!
The only thing I would agree with is the irresponsible user!

Fallen trees can be easily be cleaned up! The bypass some irresponsible driver made will regrow. Unless there is some kind of environmental damage being caused by bypasses after fallen trees have been cleaned up then leave them. Instead of trying to keep the exact path created years ago, go with the flow. Change the trails to include more area, not restrict down to nothing.

Vehicle size and tire size has nothing to do with these type damages to land! Unless the only challenges there are is wiggling through trees? Well then enjoy it!

Alcohol is usually the cause of the irresponsible drivers, user created trails and resource damage. Get rid of alcohol and education will fix the rest!
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  #14  
Old 05-13-2009, 08:51 PM
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Jim & Merrick...

Let me clarify...I am not against the closure for Memorial weekend. I understand that protecting the land is the #1 priority and the FS will do what they need to do.

I was merely concerned with the comments about tire size...I think it is funny that you say this is a new problem. Do you honestly believe that if everyone ran 33" tall tires, we would have no issues with bypasses, ruts, cut trees? I call BS...I have seen my Dad's old photo albums. The trails looked torn up & rutted...the mud holes looked deep & nasty. I remember the Wilkeson Mud Run...the rabbit hole...where the trail was so chewed out that the top of the roll cage was level with the original forest floor.

My theory is that back in the day there were not as many people out wheeling...so the 1% causing problems only amounted to a few people. Today we have tons of people out on the trails, in all kinds of rigs...that 1% now represents a pretty large group. We need to focus on educating that group with words & the FS needs to focus on educating them with tickets.

I think it is fair to say that the idiot/irresponsible drivers own all kinds of rigs: CJ5, CJ7, flat fender, toyota & full buggy. I don't see how putting limits on what people drive or the tires they run is going to solve the problems.

The driver decides to go off trail...not the tires & not the rig.

NOTE: I realize you guys are old & as a result, have been doing this for a lot longer than I have...just wanted to say thank you for being involved in keeping our trails open.
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  #15  
Old 05-13-2009, 10:04 PM
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MtnRubi MtnRubi is offline
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Here is the offical memo from NRD:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee/ne...04/index.shtml

News Release
Little Naches Closed
USDA Forest Service
Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest
Contact: Doug Jenkins (509) 653-1468



May 13, 2009

The Naches Ranger District announced today that much of the Little Naches River drainage, a popular recreation destination, will be closed to motorized entry through Memorial Day weekend and perhaps later. Lingering winter weather, heavier than normal snow pack, wind thrown trees (see photos below), and very wet or snow-covered roads and trails prompted the closure.

“The combination of late snowfall and a very late spring, following a January thaw and wind event have created an unfortunate situation for those anticipating an early season outing in the Little Naches. We now have trees down on roads and trails, some of which still have significant snow on them. Our first priority is for the safety of the public and with conditions being what they are we reluctantly came to the conclusion that a temporary closure was our best option,” said District Ranger Randy Shepard.

“This is an unusual event but bottom line very little is accessible and we don’t anticipate enough change over the next couple of weeks to warrant opening the drainage. In addition to visitor safety, we also have to look at protecting the trails and other resources from damage during these very wet conditions,” said Mike Rowan Recreation Manager for the Naches District.

The closure includes all trails and roads accessing the Little Naches, Forest Service roads system 1900. The Little Naches and Kaner Flat Campgrounds will be open, but everything beyond Kaner Flat will be closed to motorized entry, including trails accessed from those areas.

The closure area begins at the intersection of Forest Service Road #1900/1902 (Crow Creek), west to the bank of the Little Naches River and south to State Route 410. From this point the closure follows State Route 410 to the Norse Peak Wilderness boundary north to the Naches/Cle Elum Districts boundary. The closure area then follows the district boundary along Manastash Ridge to Forest Service road # 1708, Milk Pond, and then southwesterly back to State Route 410. All trails and roads west of Milk Pond Road, FS road #1708 are closed.

The closure is effective immediately and will remain in effect until conditions warrant lifting the closure. Crews will monitor conditions on a regular basis and once they change enough to warrant lifting the closure the area will open.

“With what we know now, it is difficult to predict when conditions will improve,” said Shepard. “Hopefully more seasonable weather will prevail and we can address the downed trees and other repairs by early in June. Until then, we are encouraging people to look into alternative areas for their motorized recreation activities.”

“The calendar says mid-May, but we are still receiving snow squalls at even mid elevations. Winter has not completely released its grip and the majority of trails in the mid-to- higher elevations for off-road enthusiasts won’t be accessible either due to snow or windfalls,” said Doug Jenkins, Public Information Specialist. “Please call ahead for the latest information, but don’t expect any miracles until we get some major weather changes.”







Downed trees across 941 trail near Jungle Creek in Little Naches drainage

For more information please call Doug Jenkins at the Naches Ranger Station, (509) 653-1411 or leave a message at (509) 653-1468.
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  #16  
Old 05-13-2009, 10:08 PM
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MtnRubi MtnRubi is offline
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The actual memo shows pic's.
Our club will be exploring and running PLENTY of other trails in the area close by to stay away from the closed area!!
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  #17  
Old 05-13-2009, 10:48 PM
Merrick Graves Merrick Graves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk View Post
Jim & Merrick...

Let me clarify...I am not against the closure for Memorial weekend. I understand that protecting the land is the #1 priority and the FS will do what they need to do.

I was merely concerned with the comments about tire size...I think it is funny that you say this is a new problem. Do you honestly believe that if everyone ran 33" tall tires, we would have no issues with bypasses, ruts, cut trees? I call BS...I have seen my Dad's old photo albums. The trails looked torn up & rutted...the mud holes looked deep & nasty. I remember the Wilkeson Mud Run...the rabbit hole...where the trail was so chewed out that the top of the roll cage was level with the original forest floor.

My theory is that back in the day there were not as many people out wheeling...so the 1% causing problems only amounted to a few people. Today we have tons of people out on the trails, in all kinds of rigs...that 1% now represents a pretty large group. We need to focus on educating that group with words & the FS needs to focus on educating them with tickets.

I think it is fair to say that the idiot/irresponsible drivers own all kinds of rigs: CJ5, CJ7, flat fender, toyota & full buggy. I don't see how putting limits on what people drive or the tires they run is going to solve the problems.

The driver decides to go off trail...not the tires & not the rig.

NOTE: I realize you guys are old & as a result, have been doing this for a lot longer than I have...just wanted to say thank you for being involved in keeping our trails open.
Today is what our focus is on. To try to call what went on in Wilkerson is irrelevant. That area was closed by the landowner many years ago. Similar soil conditions exist in Ravensdale also closed by the landowner years ago. The Ravensdale area closure was hastened by a Fish Kissing group known as "Friends of Rock Creek". Championed by Ron Sims and the King County Government. The "Rabbit Holes" were filled.

I understand and agree in concept with your theory of the 1%. However you won't educate them. Remember they are the 1% group there is a reason they fit that profile.

Now our lawmakers have taken the funding away from the FS to not only educate but the enforcement $$$ are gone also. So rather than banning "Big Tires and Big Vehicles" the quick easy fix is to remove the usergroup from where the problems are created (the trails). Remember the FS and DNR must not descriminate. They can't ban just the problem vehicles they have to close the entire area. Gates are easy and cheap.

In the Manastash area managed by the Naches District they have done just that. Seasonal closure's were talked about in the big tire discussions. If they chose not to do one option they certainly could do the other. Moisture was to be their determining factor and apparently under current conditions there is to much moisture. White River has managed the Naches Trail like this for years.Get use to these types of closures as when a closure in one area pushes people to another the greater impact will be more area seasonal closures.

As far as to your thanking the old people "Your Welcome", but take some advise read Jim's signature quote he has it part right, the credit should go to Ron Dunn of 4Wheelingplus. It was Mikki that quoted Ron. But never the less those who do not learn from past mistakes are doomed to repeat them. In todays political enviroment that will destroy what we all have built.

I do still believe that the comments about the FS made by the PNW4WDA Idaho state Director were ignorant and irresponsible. You should know better than that. Follow the fine example set by the Oregon and Washington Directors. Think first, think twice, then speak.
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  #18  
Old 05-14-2009, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MtnRubi View Post
The actual memo shows pic's.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee/ne...04/index.shtml





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  #19  
Old 05-14-2009, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
Vehicle size and tire size has nothing to do with these type damages to land!
X2!

The drivers of many different type rigs and size tires do the damage by spinning there tires in the mud or destroying vegetation with there rig or saw.

This is the BS that kept me away from the PNW4WDA for many years. Just because I drive a bigger rig with big tires on the trail doesn't mean I am going to cause damage to the trail. I have never caused damage to the trails with any of my rigs and I have been wheelin' for many years. 18 years in a K5 Blazer. I use to get a lot of crap over it from the CJ PNW4WDA guys when I would meet them on the trail. They would tell me it was a Jeep trail and I don't belong there. I wonder if any of you remember saying that to me.

Times have changed. You can't buy a new Flatty these days!
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  #20  
Old 05-14-2009, 12:55 PM
EagleMark EagleMark is offline
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Here in Idaho we clean up fell trees like this many times every year on many trails. No reason to close them...
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