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  #11  
Old 08-26-2009, 10:43 PM
bjeepin3 bjeepin3 is offline
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First of all I am not angry and second there is no contest. I still do not see where at anytime Mr. Harris advocated for any closure of a trail or road in the editorial. I do see he is quoting the forest service in their process of implementation in regards to comments, the MVUM and the development of the TMP. He is stating though that we all need to be involved in the process to get anything out of it. It has been over the course of the last 4-5yrs that the Klamath club has been mapping trails that they use or have found and turned them into the appropriate land manger. I am sure that they have kept copies of them and copies of any correspondence that they may have had with those respective managers. I am equally sure that anyone who has taken the time to put their opinion into the TMP at whatever level will have the right to appeal, especially when the final plan comes out and there are no class II trails made available to the user. If you will also note by the time line in the article, Fremont-Winema is far behind in the process. THey have pretty much stuck their head in the sand and not been doing their job.

As we are all aware, each forest district seems to have their own way of interpreting the rules, how they will use the process for gathering information, how they will then use that information and then spell it out for us. Do I like the process, not on a bet but it is what we have to follow. As we learned from the USFS Region 6 Home Office, we need to be able to show where they did not follow the letter of the law. That is why we need to be involved or we give our right of appeal away. That is what I took from the editorial, BE INVOLVED...not the selling out of the class II community by just taking what they give us.

The reason I posted last night was not out of anger. I had 6 emails and two phone calls last night asking me what I was going to do about the post. My first thought after reading the post, was nothing. Patti is entitled to her opinion. I may not agree with it but it is hers. However, the more I read that post last night the more I thought was WOW! this really is not so cool. We have lost some very dedicated members in this region who had built strong relationships with their land managers that have just quit because they felt that if they did something wrong, didn't fully understand the process of the TMP or brokered deals that would let trails stay open but possibly close others that they were "selling out" the class II community. Then I thought about another post by Patti in which she described how things work in DC4W, that it was like a marriage but they could patch things up when they disagreed. I kept wondering why that same thought process could not have been applied unilaterally for others in region 6 when there was a disagreement. Instead people were made to feel like they were stupid, sell outs or disinfranchised. And that is just not good. I don't want to be a part of that atmosphere and any consideration I had of trying to develop an individual members club within region 6 to replace the club I was in was gone. I seriously considered resigning as Oregon Director last night because there does not seem to be any way to cross that divide.

The tough job to me is to get people who are willing to go into battle with you. The easy part is to listen to others opinions and let go of the parts that you don't think will work for your particular argument. However, when we have silenced those opinions we all lose. I do not always agree with the thoughts of DC4W and how they are presented. However, I have always taken the time to congratulate you on your victories and thank you for your hard work. It just would be nice to see that courtesy returned to others who may disagree with you no matter how misguided you think their opinion is, they took the time to form an opinion and took the time to see it through.

I still stand by my original statement in that the editorial should be removed and I really think that it has been misapplied in this case.

Beth
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  #12  
Old 08-27-2009, 08:53 AM
Art Waugh Art Waugh is offline
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Well put and Thank you for filling the Oregon Director position. Been there, done that all the way. Don't follow in my steps.
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  #13  
Old 08-27-2009, 07:17 PM
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high desert 4x4 high desert 4x4 is offline
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Deschutes County 4 Wheelers are located in Central Oregon and are part of Region 6 of the Pacific Northwest Four Wheel Drive Association. The agencies around our area have been creating OHV trails and areas for over 30 years. Tom Harris in various positions would assist in the mitigations. Total class II trails for his trouble is zero. There is one graveled road in East Fort Rock OHV area. Trails that Tom deemed too sensitive are now great class I and class III high speed courses and rocky tracks. In fact, the Forest Service is now realizing that some of these trails would be highly suitable for Class II use and are contemplating a change in designation. This is no judgment just fact.

Tom's letter to the editor simply reiterates his opinion and mitigation style. Have faith and patience and the agency will make class II trails. This is no judgment just Tom’s approach. I ask, “Why would the agency designate class II trails when 10 to 1 the letters they get are; close this area and close this area and close this area.”

Alan D. you are right:
Lets put aside all of the he said, she said and who hates who crap and talk about the real issue here.

I think it would be a big mistake to just accept the Forest Service's proposal to close all level 1 roads and user created trails. If they don't take the time to evaluate them now, during a required analysis, why would we believe they will make the time in the near future to evaluate them in separate projects?

We all know that it is easier to keep an existing trail open than it is to get a new trail open. The longer the existing trails are closed, the more the anti-motorized groups will be able to argue that opening them back up will create new impacts and the less the motorized groups will be able to argue in favor of historic use.

At the very least, the Forest Service should do a high-level analysis and close only those routes that have obvious problems, such as running down the middle of a fish-bearing stream. Alan Dragoo
76 CJ5
Spokane 4 Wheelers
www.4x4TrailInfo.com


Alan P. you are right:
Thank you for keeping the Fremont- Winema, on the radar. There are many 4 wheeling opportunities there. I've been going there with my Dad for MANY years.
Alan Paulson
Umpqua Valley Timber Cruisers 4 Wheel Drive Club
Region 6 Director PNW4WDA


The Fremont-Winema had since 2005 to evaluate and designate as the USFS had directed. That was the law. Now it is our turn to give our opinions and that is the law. We class II users have to comment, "We are not pleased with the Fremont Winema TMP." Beth spoke of phone calls? My e-mails have been, "what was Tom thinking?" Why would he have the faith of a Phase II when as you can see there are zero miles designated for class II in Phase I? Phase II is a dream. Phase I should have been as directed by the agency, a time to inventory needs of users and designate areas of trails. Not a blanket closure with a promise of something in the future.

Tom is not being maligned just because an article which he authored was placed on the PNW forum. After all, it was published in a paper which has a much larger readership than this forum.

Sensitivity to the subject and blame and/or flame throwing is childish. So is spinning your tires so as to spray gravel on the region delegation, (potentially harming innocent children) when the majority did not vote your way. Yes, Region 6 had a shake up last year. Four families left because the majority did not agree with those four families. They have since moved on to California clubs or Region 5. We do not call this "kowtowing" but rather "majority rule".

This TMP process is an adult game. If you do not have the heart or stomach to participate don’t do it.

Within the last couple of years, Deschutes County 4 Wheelers, with the assistance of Region 6, have built a rock crawl play area. We have also signed 21 miles of class II trails in the Deschutes National Forest. And we are currently building over five miles of "more difficult" and "most difficult" NEW trails, and are currently in negotiation for an additional four miles of trails, all with ATV matching funds in conjunction with the BLM and the USFS. We are not the agency’s enemy in our back yard; we do cleanups, maintain trails and assist the agencies by cutting wood for snow mobile shelters and what ever they wish. We do not kowtow to their TMPs. If we disagree we state it. Our future four-wheelers will remember this as they negotiate “trails”.

The Fremont-Winema TMP shows:
Type of Road Miles
ML 1 – Closed to vehicular traffic 5,472
ML 2 – Open to all vehicles 6,011
ML 3 – Open to highway legal vehicles 722
ML 4 – Open to highway legal vehicles 256
OHV Trail 8.5
Total Transportation System Miles 12,469.5

Vehicle Class Proposed Action (Miles)
Roads designated for highway legal vehicles only 380
Roads designated for all vehicles 6,202
Trails designated for vehicles 50 inches or less in width 8.5
Trails designated for all vehicles 0
Total 6,590.516
Areas designated for motorized cross-country travel 1@80 acres

I urge all of you to read the Fremont-Winema TMP. We are simply opposed to the closure of over 5000 miles of roads/trails which are currently not posted as closed. These are Level I roads which are used by hunters, fishermen and 4x4 enthusiasts; class II families. We are also opposed to the closure of undesignated trails which are shown on the countless maps and gps'd areas submitted for this TMP. We are now told that submitted maps and gps files have been "lost". The Klamath Falls Four Runners who have taken their time to submit their wishes will not be acknowledged for their input. This is against the written law.

There is no attack on Tom Harris. There is a difference of opinion on how to address an issue. The issue is: do we have enough Class II trails.

The issue is how will each individual deal with the fact: Fremont-Winema did not follow the letter of the law, there are no Class II trail opportunities designated in the Travel Management Plan of the Fremont-Winema.

respectfully submitted:
Mona Drake
Deschutes County 4 Wheeler
Deschutes County 4 Wheeler Trails Developement Committee
(editor of the newsletter)
Charter Member Harney County High Desert Wheelers
Region 6 Secretary
Southeast Oregon Resource Advisory Council Member OHV Recreation Commercial
High Desert 4X4 Looking to the future.

Last edited by high desert 4x4; 08-28-2009 at 08:28 AM.
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  #14  
Old 08-27-2009, 09:18 PM
gunrunner gunrunner is offline
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Mona, we are also proud to that you are a member in good standing of the Harney County High Desert Wheels. Awesome letter and well stated.
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  #15  
Old 08-28-2009, 09:01 AM
Art Waugh Art Waugh is offline
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With the back door policies, outright lies and illegal way of getting "corrections" done, yep, you managed to force out some old members of the region so you can go your own way. Good luck with it.
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  #16  
Old 08-28-2009, 09:58 AM
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high desert 4x4 high desert 4x4 is offline
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Art your post is rude, untruthful and childish. Region 6 did not want to donate the money from Creek n Trail to the BlueRibbon Coalition we need it in Region 6 for matching funds to keep trails. Your vote for over 4 years was the same. The majority vote was no money to BRC other than $100. You and the others chose to pick up your toys and move. OK well fine. Sorry we hurt your feelings but the majority voted.
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  #17  
Old 08-28-2009, 01:44 PM
JUST JACK JUST JACK is offline
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When I finished reading the editorial in the Sunday paper written by Tom Harris, who claims to be a spokesperson for the four wheel drive community. I felt Tom’s editorial did not have one supporting statement for our community and most of his babble was forest service talking points, i.e. the Bubba Factor. It sounded like a forest service employee wrote it.

Tom was asked by the Four Runners to refrain negotiating with forest service for the club on his own, and he quit the Four Runners and Region 6 after approximately 30 years as a member. Tom has his own agenda, and his own views and the four wheel drive community views are in direct conflict. But he probably thinks of me as Bubba.

The clubs position is as stated and that the club feels it is critical to designate Class II Trails so that they appear on the MVUM and not left to some unspecified time in the future.
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  #18  
Old 08-29-2009, 02:09 PM
bjeepin3 bjeepin3 is offline
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I spoke with Mr. Weatherall at Winema Fremont late yesterday afternoon to discuss some of these issues. Specifically regarding lost maps and the work done by the Four Runners. He stated that for some reason at the Klamath Basin meeting the erroneous information regarding those trail maps was given. The work that the Four Runners is there and included on the MVUM at this time.

Mr. Weatheral did state that level I road closures were universal across the US as per the Closed Unless Posted Open Policy. I would suppose that if a level I road was posted open then it should still be open. i don't live down there, so I really don't know if that is true or not. He then stated that they will have approx 6600 mi of open road, 5000 of which is deemed high clearance. He did acknowledge that even with the designation of high clearance that you could probably still drive your Honda down it. He did state that the Four Runners have identified areas that could be used for the moderate to experienced 4x4 driver. He was also very quick to remind me that at this time there are only 8.5mi of OHV trail and that is still the case on the current map when you look at it. He also pointed out that the call for opinions and the letter writing campaigns during this phase are important and when trails can be added to the process. Mr. Weatherall also felt that by the time they were finished with the TMP that were likely to have the most miles of open road in the PNW when compared to other forests. Again, it will be up to those who want trails to advocate for them.

Mr. Weatherall seemed approachable when I talked to him and did not seem opposed to comments and concerns from the 4x4 community. My suggestion would be to call either Mr. Weatherall or Mr. Westlund and then follow up that conversation with a letter or email.

And no, I did not engage in any type of negotiating of trails....the local club can do that per the policy of region 6 as stated. I just wanted clarification of some of the comments in this thread from the forest service and sharing that conversation.

Beth
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  #19  
Old 08-29-2009, 06:01 PM
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Thank you, Beth for that information. We, too, received word yesterday that the Fremont-Winema FS were again in discussions with the local ATV club as well as the Klamath Four Runners. Due to the letters and phone calls from the local users - including motorcycle, quad and 4x4 - the FS is also aware that Mr. Harris is not representing these user groups. Apparently the ATV club had the same response to the editorial that our clubs did. We also learned that the maps and gps files had been “found.”

It has been said that it is ok to disagree. That is exactly what KFR and DC4W did. Had we not, we would still be sitting here with nothing and no chance to change that. Moral of the story: DO NOT take “no” for an answer when it comes to the Forest Service designating trails. Like Beth said, it is up to those who want trails to advocate for them.

The main thing is to keep the main thing, the main thing. IT’S ABOUT TRAILS. If we ask for nothing, that is exactly what we will get. If we continue to kiss up to the land managers, they will continue to promise us the world, give us nothing and close everything.
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  #20  
Old 08-31-2009, 09:31 AM
JUST JACK JUST JACK is offline
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Perfectly said Patty, if you don’t request any trails then why would they give you any.
It sounds like here in Klamath we made enough noise that Fremont Winema made some last minute changes to their maps. Marvin from the ATV club here in town, called me Friday to let me know that he sat down with the Fremont Winema and used their computers to put there ATV and our 4X4 trails on their maps, because they did not know how to get our trails on their computer, that is why they were not there. Richard Kehr tried drawing them in by hand when he was in charge but after he moved on they just dropped the ball and forgot about our trails we had turned in. It’s all about trails!
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