Fight Tooth and Nail

[jim putman]

Originally Posted by dirk

So...what are they doing to bring these users into the conversation? The trail is for everyone....so just because the DC4W likes it a certain way, doesn't mean that is how the trail should be managed. If there are folks out there that want something else, we should be actively trying to get them involved. Not just saying they had an opportunity to be at the table. That approach is BS and just builds resentment.

Please take my comments with a grain of salt...I've never run the trail, but hope to soon. Everything I've read online says that the trail is finally getting worn in and fun. But then I read comments from DC4W that say it's torn to ****. I'm not sure who to believe, but I vote for the version that is more challenging and fun.

I know that Graeme Tydeman from G-Fab is involved down there, but not as part of the PNW4WDA....not sure if he is viewed as a partner or the enemy....but I would strongly recommend that he and his crew be listened to and considered a valid partner. He represents my interests in what a fun trail looks like and I know that there are a bunch of users all over WA & OR that feel the same.

OH PLEASE Bryan you fully know that everyone is always welcome at the table and that there are no "secret" back room talks and decisions. The folks that you should believe are the ones that do ALL of the work not the ones that just rip everything up until if fits "their" needs. If they want these super hard trails that fit their needs then they need to get off of their lazy asses and do ALL of the work that it takes to get them. Unfortunately that means years of commitment and that's just boring and hard. Its much easier to just change someone else's work into what you want. He may know what a "fun" trail looks like to him and you but tearing up a more moderate trail to fit his needs is no better than "paving" a hard trail so that a stock JK can make it. Do the work and you should be able to enjoy the benefits of it. People that cant respect that are the welfare queens of the four wheeling world.

[dirk]

...and I still want to hear an official statement from the DC4W on this. Jim...I appreciate you being willing to speak up, but we are far removed from Oregon and I am interested in hearing what they experience down that way.

[dirk]

Originally Posted by jim putman

OH PLEASE Bryan you fully know that everyone is always welcome at the table and that there are no "secret" back room talks and decisions. The folks that you should believe are the ones that do ALL of the work not the ones that just rip everything up until if fits "their" needs. If they want these super hard trails that fit their needs then they need to get off of their lazy asses and do ALL of the work that it takes to get them. Unfortunately that means years of commitment and that's just boring and hard. Its much easier to just change someone else's work into what you want. He may know what a "fun" trail looks like to him and you but tearing up a more moderate trail to fit his needs is no better than "paving" a hard trail so that a stock JK can make it. Do the work and you should be able to enjoy the benefits of it. People that cant respect that are the welfare queens of the four wheeling world.

...I'm not OK with your comments. You always speak up and represent the PNW4WDA online. If DC4W feels the same as you I'd like to hear it now. If Graeme and his crew are the group in question...I'd like to hear it now. I know Mona knows who Graeme is...I hope he is viewed as a partner.

The PNW4WDA needs to get their **** together and figure out how to get EVERYONE interested in sitting at the same table. This whole, we put in the time and built it...so respect our authority crap is going to backfire.

Let's start representing the ENTIRE 4x4 community instead of just our select few members.

[jim putman]

Originally Posted by dirk

...I'm not OK with your comments. You always speak up and represent the PNW4WDA online. If DC4W feels the same as you I'd like to hear it now. If Graeme and his crew are the group in question...I'd like to hear it now. I know Mona knows who Graeme is...I hope he is viewed as a partner.

The PNW4WDA needs to get their **** together and figure out how to get EVERYONE interested in sitting at the same table. This whole, we put in the time and built it...so respect our authority crap is going to backfire.

Let's start representing the ENTIRE 4x4 community instead of just our select few members.

And once again you totally miss the point. EVERYONE is welcome but 90% just cant be bothered with pesky meetings and work parties and such so THEY choose not to be involved. As we have always done we build trails to fit our needs. If those needs don't fit a particular user base then they need to get involved with us to make it happen. The work done at the PNW4WDAs summer convention is the proof in the pudding that this works. The "hardcore" trail guys wanted a "hard" course so the put on their big boy pants and built it and it was a huge success by all accounts.

[dirk]

Originally Posted by jim putman

And once again you totally miss the point. EVERYONE is welcome but 90% just cant be bothered with pesky meetings and work parties and such so THEY choose not to be involved. As we have always done we build trails to fit our needs. If those needs don't fit a particular user base then they need to get involved with us to make it happen. The work done at the PNW4WDAs summer convention is the proof in the pudding that this works. The "hardcore" trail guys wanted a "hard" course so the put on their big boy pants and built it and it was a huge success by all accounts.

Here's a thought...how about the PNW4WDA "put on their big boy pants" and represent the entire 4x4 community? Sitting back and saying, "well...we invited them to our meeting" isn't going to make everyone want to be involved. What is the association doing to actively bring these folks in? You ***** about dwindling membership, but don't do anything different to attract new users? Weird that membership isn't bursting at the seams.

Wait...I'm a PNW4WDA member now...you get to represent my interests...right? I want hard trails. My club wants hard trails. We attend meetings and demand to be represented.

[dirk]

...and now I want to hear from someone else besides Jim. While I appreciate his willingness to speak up online, it is time for others to get off their hands and start contributing to the conversation.

Your silence tells me that Jim speaks for you and the PNW4WDA as a whole.

[jim putman]

We do represent the entire community. If you took a deeper look you would see this but its easier and more fun to be the detractor. Do you enjoy the hardcore trails in rimrock or Elbe or tsf of the funny rocks ? Who do you think makes sure those trails exist ? If they don't want to be involved then why should we be building trails that we (figuratively) can't use ? **** maybe we should start building my bike friendly trails while were at it.



Then we can get those REI grants in ****

[dirk]

Originally Posted by jim putman

We do represent the entire community.

I would bet that if you conducted a survey of users at the ORV trails....most would say that the PNW4WDA doesn't represent them. They either won't know who the PNW4WDA is or they have some old beef with the association.

Also...I'm calling BS on this comment from you. You've said for years that the PNW4WDA represents its members only. As you've said, if folks wanted a say, they needed to join up and attend a meeting.

Originally Posted by jim putman

Do you enjoy the hardcore trails in rimrock or Elbe or tsf of the funny rocks ? Who do you think makes sure those trails exist ?

Rimrock is awesome. Elbe is heavily influenced by the WatchThisFourwheelerz crew these days...what claim does the PNW4WDA make on what they've done? As I recall, our PNW4WDA members got pissed off several years ago and left Elbe to others to maintain. WOW and then WTF have carried the torch since then.

Originally Posted by jim putman

If they don't want to be involved then why should we be building trails that we (figuratively) can't use ? **** maybe we should start building my bike friendly trails while were at it.

I don't think all users should expect to be able to use every mile of OHV trail...some should be easy, some should be narrow, some should be moderate & some should be so difficult only the most deranged dare to enter.

Originally Posted by jim putman

Then we can get those REI grants in ****

Don't try to use my employer as a dig....everyone knows REI doesn't support OHV recreation. It's a great company to work for. At least they heavily invest in their future.....we should be pissed that all OHV companies don't do the same.

[dirk]

I know Jim thinks I sound like a "detractor", but I actually want the PNW4WDA to succeed. How do we get users outside of the PNW4WDA to actually want to participate? So far...telling them to attend a meeting doesn't seem to be working.

[dirk]

I think we need more of this...



....and less of this